A friend who replicates school at home in her homeschool once said to me, in a comparison of our parenting and homeschooling styles, “I know you give in to your children, and that’s okay, that’s your choice …”
Frankly, I was too taken aback at the flat statement to respond at the time, but I thought about it a lot afterward. And here’s what I thought: I don’t give in to my kids … but I can see why she thinks that I do.
What My Friend Sees
My friend carefully and thoughtfully selects a curriculum for each subject she is teaching. If she chooses to put her kids in a co-op class, they are in it full throttle until the end of the year. I don’t use curricula or give my children a schedule of learning. If they don’t want to join a co-op class, I don’t make them; or if they want to drop out, I let them.
Now, I’m the first to admit I am a very laid-back person and my friend is a very regimented, by-the-book, type-A personality. So when she sees me not making choices for my children’s education and not pushing them to reach a standard in something, her assumption is that I’m just letting them walk all over me because of my laid-back-itude. I am “giving in” to my children.
What I See
The reason we can still be friends is she doesn’t get mad about it or try to convince me I’m wrong. When she says, “That’s okay, that’s your choice,” she means it. But she cannot look past her own personality to see that in fact I am parenting quite strictly … in accordance with my own goals for my children. My goals and the paths I’ve chosen to reach them differ so much from hers that all she sees is what I do not do as a parent.
I don’t select a curriculum to teach my kids. Instead we talk about what they want to learn and their goals for the future, then together we decide how to achieve the goals they set for themselves. Through about mid-junior high, that means they don’t generally do a whole lot in the “structured academics” department. As they get closer to high school and have a better idea what they may want to do as adults, we start looking for ways to work on those goals. If they change their goals, then what we are doing changes too.
I don’t make my kids join or stay in co-ops. My youngest (8) will join anything her friends are in, whether it is appropriate for her age and abilities or not; my next youngest (10) won’t join anything new or different. Instead of stopping the joiner if I think she will be more of a distraction than a student, or forcing the nonjoiner because I know he’ll like it, we talk. We go over what will be happening and discuss if it is something appropriate and interesting. I may tell my joiner we’ll try it for a week or two and decide if it works. I may urge my nonjoiner to try it out, just twice, to see if it is something he’ll enjoy.
After the trial, we’ll decide together if it is appropriate, interesting, or worth the drive. To me this is not letting them quit, and it’s not giving in to my kids … it is keeping my promises to them. If I urge my son to just try it out because I really think he’ll enjoy it, but then I don’t let him drop out if he doesn’t, I’ve broken my word to him.
Why I Unschool
I want my children to grow up being able to think for themselves and make good decisions, and I firmly believe that the best way to learn those skills is to practice them. Call me crazy, but I prefer the practicing of decision-making to take place in a safe environment rather than starting the day the child moves out of my house. So I model out loud when I make my own decisions, and I walk them through the decision-making process when they have one to make, and once they’ve done that I honor their decision by letting it be their own decision.
Children who are accustomed to weighing options and having the power to make their own choices are less likely to go wild with making decisions just for the sake of making them. Children who are never allowed to make choices often end up making a whole slew of them – too frequently bad ones – the first shake out of the box when they move away from home, just to prove that they can.
Snakebite Piercing
For instance, I know one homeschooled kid whose father pre-read every book before he was allowed to read it, even as an older teen, and the father maintained that kind of control over everything in the boy’s life. The boy’s first decision upon moving out was to get snakebites (fang piercings). I have nothing much against snakebites, and maybe he would have gotten them anyway, but I’m pretty sure in this particular case, it was totally aimed at making a decision he knew his dad would disapprove because he was desperate to own his own decision about something, for once.
The Bible Tells Me So
Do not exasperate your children (Eph 6:4). I take that to mean, among other things: Don’t lie to them. Do keep faith and trust with them. Don’t force them into things they really don’t want to do. Do seek ways to involve them meaningfully in decisions for their own future – it is their own future, after all. Do teach them the things that are more important to their future than fact memorization.
And then there is the entire chapter of Genesis 18. You remember, it’s the one where God decided to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham obeyed. Oh, wait – that was a different story. This time, Abraham argued with God … and God gave in.
So I parent consistently according to my standards and objectives for my family, and I don’t give in to my children. Except, of course, for the times when I do give in to them. Because if God can do it, then it’s good enough for me.
FURTHER READING:
10,000 Hours
Finishing What You Start
Comment Below to Enter the Giveaway Drawing!
Have You Socialized Your Kids Today?
Every homeschooler is familiar with “the S question” and most of us have been tempted to give a smart answer every once in a while.
This coffee mug from The Homeschool Shop, with a panicked mom exclaiming, “Oh no! I forgot to socialize the kids!” will cheer your morning routine.
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Oh snap, I know you didn’t just throw down Genesis 18. Love. : )
Snap yes!
Oh how I loved every bit of this. The “if it’s good enough for God” thing though… when my youngest was born and my husband wanted to circumcise him and I did not, someone told me that if it was good enough for Jesus it was good enough for my kid. And that a big fight between his parents was worse than the procedure could ever be. That made a lot of sense to me.
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/07/biblical-circumcision-information.html
just… if you have another boy. there’s a lot of new testament verses about NOT getting circumcised.
Well said! As I said before, I’m a newbie & ,man, those questions/comments that are so cliche to homeschooling, well… There are a lot of them! Thanks again for your great blog! It certainly is a blessing to me and I’m sure many others!
And that mug. Love it.
Kat
Hi Kat – glad you like the mug and especially glad you are finding some answers to your questions!
You can post questions on our Facebook page (link in the sidebar above) if there are some you’d like to see us specifically address here!
LOVE this post! We may not agree on every single thing (for example, There are things I do make my children do), but for the most part I agree.
I think God puts kids in different families because He thinks we need all kinds. There are plenty of ways to honor your children’s choices in every kind of family.
First time reader but I will be back! I love your article & understand how/why you chose the path you have! I have tried to unschool & while it worked wonders with one of my children the others needed a bit more structure:) I love how homeschooling is such an awesome journey with us learning as much as the kids!
Melissa
[...] by Carma “You give in to your kids!” If you unschool, someone may have said this to you … or if you know someone who unschools, you may have said or thought it yourself. If you’d like an unschooler’s perspective of why we “give in” and the reasoning behind it, and why we don’t think of it in quite that way, hop over to the Christian Unschooling blog and read my post there on Giving in to My Kids (Or, Why I Unschool). [...]
Love this post! We are getting back to unschooling (hopefully!) Went back and forth and think unschooling is the best not only for them BUT also for our relationship with our kids.
and yes, oh snap on Genesis 18!
and the mug!! I must have one! Can they be purchased?
Glad to hear it, Erica!
And yes, the mug is available for purchase (that design is also on t-shirts and other stuff) at The Homeschool Shop on Zazzle.
Love it! It’s nice to read more blogs supporting unschooling as a way of life. We’ve been at it for just over two years, and the rewards are endless. Thanks so much for the post. (PS – the mug is hysterical!)
First time reader – what a thought provoking post. We’re new to homeschooling, and while I like the ideals of classical homeschooling, the realities of being on modified bed
rest with baby 4 are making me consider other options. Looking forward to reading more!
Pauline, I like the ideas of classical education too … but … yeah, it can be hard to make it work in real life, especially since that style of learning fits a few kids to a T, but doesn’t mesh at all well with other learning styles. I know my four children all have wildly different personalities and learning styles, so one teaching style just doesn’t cut it around here!
This is exactly why I quit classical homeschooling. What worked for 1st born, didn’t work for the next one.,
Why I every time I socialized my kids they get sick? flu, rash skin, pink eye, now I think it twice when they I ask me to go to the mall to play with other kids in the playground.
This is fantastic!
This is a very interesting subject. I think many of us are torn between the two conflicting views. I think that at first homeschooling seems so scary and you make yourself do tons of research and stress yourself. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you become about your family’s process and your own abilities to educate your children without following every rule in your “curriculum book.”
Kathy, I’ve been homeschooling for 16 years now and what I see is that most people start out doing what they know – school at home. A few continue as is and some find it too hard and put the kids back in school, but in my experience MOST who continue homeschooling begin to relax and become more flexible and responsive to their children’s individual learning styles. I can count on one hand with fingers left over those who start out relaxed and become more formal in their homeschooling.
I agree. I have always been relaxed, and just began home schooling my two middle school aged children two months ago. We bike to my seminary library, read good books, occasionally do some algebra, and come home. We also juggle outside during study breaks. I can’t imagine changing our routine. My wife has them listen to Khanacademy.org for math.
Love this article. We discuss our goals with our children each year, and while we do follow a more structured routine, we allow the kids to choose between curricula options for the most part, especially if they really loathe a certain type. We will also just stop something and go a different way mid-year if something is really not working for us. So we are not unschoolers per se, but we do allow a lot of choice.
What a great article. We are 3 years into homeschooling. I was homeschooled through 8th grade – in a “replicating school at home” environment. We have chosen to unschool our children and the benefits and rewards have been numerous. I am also a first time reader but am going to follow your facebook page now.
(Love the mug!)
Great article! I love that you were able to see that what your friend was saying wasn’t meant to be mean. I try so hard to be the bigger person and not take things the wrong way, but at times comments get the best of me. Thank you:):) lesson learned:):)
Well it certainly hurt me at first, but shock usually renders me speechless so she didn’t know it, and I was able to process what she really meant by it later. Friendship saved!
I loved this! I want to unschool my kids in the worst way, but I’m such a type-A personality that it makes my tummy hurt. This has been our first year, and I must say, each month, I get more and more relaxed about everything except phonics and math (the phonics he deals with because he is loving reading, and the math is his favorite subject, so why change!). Maybe by the time my middle guy is ready to “officially” start, I’ll have the courage…. yeah, no, not going to happen! Can’t even type it!
LOL, Kate! Don’t call it unschooling, call it “interest-led learning” and see if that helps.
I think you were just an answer to a prayer I uttered this afternoon. My son has been begging, this entire school year, to be homeschooled. We have not said yes to him but have seriously considered it. He is in a small, private school and has not fared well with his fourth grade teacher. I uttered a prayer asking God if I should be honoring my sons request or if that would just be “giving in to him” as his teacher said to me today. Now I think I will go ahead and give in to him…allow him to feel like he has a say in his own education and future. Thank you so much for giving me the courage to try this. My son thanks you too, I’m sure.
That is so awesome Rachel! I pray that you can find the support and encouragement you need to allow your son a choice in his education.
I’ve been there, Rachel! My children begged for years before I “gave in to them.” I have not regretted a single minute since then. I think maybe you have gotten an answer to your prayer
Rachel, thank you for posting this! I am so blessed to think that God has used me to speak to you. Accept my best wishes for your future homeschool success!
Wow! Rachel, this blessed my heart! So glad that God gave you a clear answer in such a perfect way. I pray that He will give you the strength, wisdom and courage to follow through and keep it up.
Dear Rachel,
My two older children begged me for a long time before my wife finally agreed. For the record, I always advocated home schooling. My daughter would wake up crying, as soon as she realized she was “in this world,” and that it was time to go to school. The horror of those 6 months in public school (here in Wake Forest, NC) are sufficient motivation to her to not fail in her self-study.
As for your child, consider this: you can always send him back to that private school. They will be happy to take your money. One thing I noticed about public school here in Wake Forest is that they accomplish so very little academically as a percentage of the time they are involved in the school routine (more than 9 hours it was for us), from getting to the bus stop until coming back home by bus.
The most encouraging factor is that my children gain far more than I could have showed other people (though I expected it in my mind) merely from being with me all day. You sacrifice your freedom when you home school, but that is fine if you are a Christian; you life is all about sacrifice anyway, or should be.
Hi Carma! Great post! And I love the mug! I am so glad this site is up and running again. You all keep me sane. The thing I love about homeschooling is the freedom to do it how it makes sense to me and my family. What works for one family (or child for that matter) may not work for another. That was (and still is) my biggest challenge: to find what homeschooling looks like in our family.
Yes, Rondi, it looks completely different from one family to the next, and within one family, it can look completely different from one child to the next, or from one week to the next!
Wonderful post, Carma! You write so well and hit it out of the ballpark so often!
Thank you, Krista – you’re so good for my ego.
We are a blend. I introduce some subjects but give wide berth as to how involved they want to get: math (on paper or online), writing (giving dictation or workbooks or blogging), history (we have veered off into doing plays with stuffed animals for Ancient Greek stories) and typing (online–takes about five minutes/day). We do not test. I love diving into a question they ask. Using Carma’s and others’ blogs for support/ideas, we are further from Doing School and more like Taste-testing School.
Taste-test schooling – love it!
Great article!
We are not unschoolers, but we’re relaxed homeschoolers, which is about as close as you can get to unschooling.
I completely agree about teaching kids to think for themselves and make their own decisions. My oldest is a sophomore in college five hours from home and he regularly thanks me for teaching him how to think and fend for himself. Apparently, it’s not the norm regardless of how a student is educated.
We know lots of homeschoolers who have gone to college and I consistently see that those who had parents who micromanaged their lives have a much harder time than those who were given at least some freedom to make their own choices. The ones who had no control either rebel or have a hard time functioning in that environment whereas those who were taught to make decisions while still at home seem to adapt more readily.
Must. Win. Mug.
Just found your blog, Winging It, last week and loved what I read even though we are not an unschooling family. We are a Montessori at home family and you might be familiar with the similarities that method has with unschooling in spirit. You are a witty, smart mom with a great family. I’m so glad you are blogging. LOVE your t-shirts.
Thank you for all the compliments! (And good luck in the name drawing for the mug!)
Love this post! I have also had lots of people think that we are lazy with our parenting and with homeschool, and basically that we just don’t want to do it. I hate when people think that. Also, because we’ve chosen not to use corporal punishment and instead use positive discipline, we are seen as letting our kids “walk all over us”.
Anyway, this post explains it well.
Great article, Carma. I enjoyed reading it.
The mug! She is mine.
I let my kids quit 4H. Tried my best to talk them out of it, but in the end it was their decision.
We are Tidal Homeschoolers — periods of unschooling and other periods where mom drives a bit more. But one thing that really, really annoys me is the assumption that unschoolers are just not schooling. Unschooling is a valid, thoughtful educational philosophy. You are not “giving in” to your children, but making choices based on your beliefs. (Though I am glad you accept your friend’s comments with grace.) People don’t unschool for a year because grandpa is sick, and they just can’t get it together to do school — that is just not schooling. Unschooling is a decision, a practice by the parent, something that takes thought and EFFORT. Nice post. I am glad to find you guys and added you to my reader.
I am LOL at “tidal homeschoolers” – how descriptive! And thanks for your kind words about unschooling. Nice to be “gotten.”
Wish I could take credit for tidal homeschooling, but I can’t. That was the great Melissa Wiley. Good reads here, especially if you are on the fence about unschooling. http://melissawiley.com/blog/2007/11/16/the-tidal-homeschooling-master-list/
I really like what you said about quitting, Carma. I believe childhood is the perfect time to try new things–and if kids have to stick with whatever they do first, there’s no room (or time) to try new things!
We do a co-op science class because my son loves co-op. If it were up to me, we’d sleep in and save the gas money! But he enjoys going, so we do. (Unless I *accidentally* forget to set my alarm that day…)
I really loved your post! I really want to unschool but I am afraid my kids will not learn everything they need to know. Do you test at the end of the year or do a portfolio? I tested last year and there was so much stuff on the test that my kids didn’t know because we unschool and because my daughter is dyslexic! I try to tell myself that most of the stuff that they didn’t know you hardly ever use in real life but it still makes me nervous and worry about if I am doing enough!
No, we don’t test or do a portfolio (I’m fortunate to live in a state that doesn’t require it). No, my kids don’t know everything the school says they “should” know by this age. They have gaps. I don’t worry about it.
All kids have gaps – how many public school children make it out of high school with 100%? Presumably, the only one in a graduation class who doesn’t have gaps is the valedictorian. So all kids have gaps. But when you think about it, most of the stuff they learn in school is an accumulation of trivia – good for winning at Jeopardy if you ever make it on the show, but not necessarily good for making it in life. Unless you are a chemist, do you NEED to know the periodic table of elements? I knew it pretty well by the time I graduated high school, but it was gone by the time I graduated college since I didn’t study heavy science in college.
One of the best things about homeschooling to me is, we can build our children up by letting them concentrate on their strengths rather than tearing them down by always pounding on their weaknesses. Build them up, give them confidence in their ability to learn anything they want to learn, and if your kid turns 32 and decides he wants to learn differential calculus, he’ll go sign up for a course somewhere and figure it out. Learning doesn’t stop at age 18!
I am new to your blog.
I am a Type A personality and decided to unschool. All the fighting and screaming was just not worth it.
Now my kids are happy, growing in wisdom, learning and enjoying every minute of it. I don’t worry about the gaps either because I want my kids to have freedom. Freedom to choose and to learn what they think it’s important, with guidance from us, of course!
They are way ahead of their same age/ grade friends. My kids are creative and that is one strength that I want them NOT to lose because of school or homeschooling.
The other day, another homeschooling Mom asked me and another friend who also homeschools if we were almost done with school. How many days did we have left? If we stop school during the summer? I was so happy to unschool. I realized once again, all the stress that I do NOT have in my life because I chose to live in freedom of learning.
When does one stop learning??? Now school is another story.
Love it, Tereza! Freedom with guidance – that’s the ticket!
I wouldn’t call what we do unschooling. We use curriculum, but do allot of interest lead learning. My kids attend a parent partnership two days a week which frankly hits the basics well enough. It allows me to fill in with interest lead learning. My youngest has been diagnosed with dyslexia and has forced me to do allot of outside the box teaching… And learning on my part. I have at times been complimented that I talk to my children as if they are people. I think that is funny. The last time I checked, they were. We usually pick a sport activity that I do have them commit to for the year. If they really hated it, we would probably rethink it. This year we are doing swimming even though it is not a favorite. My youngest has always had a fear of water, but they tend to spend a lot of time around it. We talked about how it is a safety issue and that as soon as she can swim, we can switch back to something else. I usually let the girls go back and forth picking activities. Due to health issues, I can’t physically run kids all over. We always do Awanas because learning about God is a priority and they enjoy the program. We would probably pcik a different program if they didn’t like it. I also made arraingments so they could attend the club they like the best. A different one fit my schedule better. The youngest wanted to switch from violin to piano this year. I vetoed that idea, but explained that she needed to play violin until she outgrew hers, then we will talk. I am not going to switch to piano, only to switch back and need to buy a larger violin. She agreed that was reasonable. I also don’t force a regimented practice schedule. They need to practice a reasonable amount to justify paying for lessons, but it is their deal. They need to want to do it. Chores, behavior, character, respect are non-negotiable. I do however try to give them some say in what we learn and participate in. It works for us.
I hear you, Kirsten. Sometimes I get caught up on the term “unschooling”–even though most homeschoolers I know would consider us to be unschoolers. I like the term “relaxed homeschoolers”. Some unschoolers see that as a cop-out term–but I like it because it leaves me some wiggle room!
Loved the article. I frequently hear my dad’s voice in my head, “Who’s the parent here?!” It’s nice to have other voices to balance his out.
Love that mug almost as much as I love the snakebite!
First time reader here. I loved this article. It covers so much of the inner wrestling match parents can go through when they begin to relax their schooling. The insecurity of being seen as (and possibly *being*) a walked-on parent can be difficult to navigate. This is our first year openly unschooling. We moved from a co-op patterned off the traditional model, to homeschooling, to unschooling. We are incredibly blessed to live with another family who has undergone this transition alongside us and are getting to unschool our kids together. Seeing the benefits of this choice reap rewards in my housemate’s children as well as my own has helped me wih my own anxieties about parenting and unschooling tremendously.
Sometimes the ‘doctrinal tenets’ of unschooling can seem perplexing. We strive to follow the heart of the unschooling principles out of the same conviction as parents that led us to this choice and out of what we feel God is saying to us about our children, not in spite of it. For example, while we don’t make our kids stick with any book, lesson, or outside class if they don’t want to, we make them honor their actual commitments. Yesterday my 7yr old promised to help my 5yr old with a task and then changed her mind about wanting to. I *did* make her do that anyway because I want her to know it is important to keep her promises to others. In no way however do I view her current interest in horsemanship a commitment. If she decides later that it’s not for her we’ll happily let her persue something else instead. I wish we’d had that distinction worked out a couple years ago when she wanted to quit her soccer team mid season. It certainly would’ve made that whole kerfuffle a lot simpler. Ah well, ever moving forward.
Yvonne, that is a good distinction to make, and I too try to help my kids distinguish between keeping promises and dropping interests. Good point!
[...] Christian Unschooling I talk about Giving in to Your Kids (or, Why I Unschool): I don’t give in to my kids … but I can see why she thinks that I do. When she sees [...]
[...] Christian Unschooling I talk about Giving in to Your Kids (or, Why I Unschool): I don’t give in to my kids … but I can see why she thinks that I do. When she sees [...]
I know I’m a little late reading this… This is excellent Carma! I think it’s so important for others to understand that unschooling is so individual, that different families proceed in different fashions with different levels of “control”, and that total control does not always produce the desired results. Am off to read Genesis 18 with my new perspective!
It’s all in the perception, isn’t it? One thing that I have learned is that people will believe what they want to believe about us, and frankly, it doesn’t bother me! I strive to mind my own business and accept and love others as they are and hope that others will do the same for me. Even if they don’t that’s OK! Love your blog! I have a lot to catch up on!
I love your blog! I just stumbled upon unschooling yesterday due to a friend, and I am very intrigued! Now my children are really young and home schooling/unschooling really makes me nervous because I don’t know if Im disciplined enough to make sure they are meeting their milestones (I need the routine of getting up for my son’s school day as much as him if there was no school… I prolly wouldn’t get up haha) That being said… I honestly think my son needs school. He is kinda army strict and loves regiments and routine and I am not like that never will be so I right now want to keep him in school. (it also is a very innovated program “play to learn” they have a routine but if he wants to play blocks all day he can very cool for a classroom)That being said… my daughter (who is only two) is giving me the impression that she is more free spirited like me and would do better in an unschooling setting. I also think that my son will transition if I choose to unschool when he is old enough. Do you know of anyone that has done this? Had one in traditional school and the other not? ( I have one more 5months and I’ll let his personality determine his direction as well) thanks
Amy
Amy, yes, there are plenty of people who have one in school and one not, though often (in my experience) it is because both were in school and one was having problems (such as bullying or something). However, that doesn’t mean you couldn’t start out that way if it works for you! I have one very regimented son, but he is #3 in the line-up so he just goes along with our laid-back style. You might be surprised to find that your regimented son does just fine in homeschooling, as long as you allow him to create his own routines and make the resources he needs available to him. In fact, I just wrote about something similar on my personal blog in a post called Unschooling Till It Hurts which you might find helpful.
I love this article, it’s such good encouragement for me. Sometimes it’s painfully easy to get sucked into the feeling that we should be like others. We have many type A and B and C homeschooling friends and they have amazing things that they are doing with their families. I just need a reminder now and then that our family is doing amazing things that fit OUR family. <3
The best thing about homeschooling is being able to tailor the education to fit the child, rather than tailoring the child to fit the education. Enjoy!
Do not exasperate your children…When my brother was a late teenager he grew wild. He rebelled against EVERYTHING for a long while. And my parents made a choice to allow him anything as long as it didn’t hurt others. Crazy hairstyle, pierced ears, smoking, drinking…you name it. When he said he was thinking of becoming a satanist, my father (a reverend) talked with him in a respectful, non-judgmental way. It was made clear, that he was allowed to think for himself, and that my parents took him seriously and would not force christianity upon him. When it grew to difficult to have him at home, they asked for him to be placed in a foster home. They let him go…But they didn’t throw him out of their home. In the end he got into a fight – And things started to get better. He asked to be sentenced to psycological treatment himself. He got a diagnosis. He got help. My parents were there for him. Today he enjoys visiting with us (even if he doesn’t do it very often). He has done things for me that show me that he loves me – even if he can’t express it in words. He has joined a bible study group. He is going to church – he is even picky about going to a reverend with sound theology.
So what am I getting at? NOT that you should let your (ordinary) teenager do whatever he wants to. Rather that if your late teenager doesn’t agree with your values you can’t force him to. If you try, you only give him more cause to rebel. Some children will draw away from their parents. But if you let them go with love, respect and no judgement…they may come back.
Sorry for giving an entire sermon – but your post inspired me to share this story.
Thank you for sharing that, Eliza! Some kids can’t learn except the hard way, it seems, and I think you are totally correct that trying to force an older child into “the mold” will just result in further separation and closes the door to future reconciliation. Sad, but true. I’m so glad that your parents were wiser and your brother has been able to return to your family!
[...] than simply telling them what to do … even though some people think it looks like I am always Giving in to My Kids. I actually have a very strict parenting style, wherein I keep my promises to my children, and if I [...]